Your Egypt

poppy · Joined: 19 May 2004 Posts: 300 Location: Istanbul, Turkey.

Ricky wrote: to be honest, I am more concerned about what is left in my pocket vs. the world at large :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: ...and so are most of you. let us just not be hypocritical about it. What would you choose "foreign policy" over potentially 10% more in taxes? just be real before you say you would prefer "foreign policy"...none of us are 16 years old or/and members of Peace Corps, are we? :lol:

What If you're a migrant worker or refugee (this has many different connotations, from countries civil issues to personal harassment, or abuse). And, your on the run from you war torn, 3rd world country. Suppose you'd have a completely different mindset then....... :shock:

You'd automatically be socially, as well as financially excluded. Forced to live in compounds, no freedom of choice. Self respect dwindling to an all time low. :cry:

Perhaps made to live in a half-way temporary boarder line, between the legal Boundaries of one county and another?

If you got the time.
Or, assuming, you're opinion even counted?

Ricky · Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1451 Location: OVERSEAS ;)

poppy wrote: Ricky wrote: to be honest, I am more concerned about what is left in my pocket vs. the world at large :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: ...and so are most of you. let us just not be hypocritical about it. What would you choose "foreign policy" over potentially 10% more in taxes? just be real before you say you would prefer "foreign policy"...none of us are 16 years old or/and members of Peace Corps, are we? :lol:

What If you're a migrant worker or refugee (this has many different connotations, from countries civil issues to personal harassment, or abuse). And, your on the run from you war torn, 3rd world country. Suppose you'd have a completely different mindset then....... :shock:

You'd automatically be socially, as well as financially excluded. Forced to live in compounds, no freedom of choice. Self respect dwindling to an all time low. :cry:

Perhaps made to live in a half-way temporary boarder line, between the legal Boundaries of one county and another?

If you got the time.
Or, assuming, you're opinion even counted?

Such people would not be paying taxes. On the contrary, people's taxes would be going towards providing min subsistence level for people who would be in a host country, be it USA, Canada, Europe, etc. It may sound cruel, but you could say that social and financial exclusion in USA is still better than being in their own war torn countries. It is one step out of humiliation and closer to self-respect.

There is still a limit to what one can do for another.

You cannot expect me who makes good money to empty my wallet for a refugee and leave more dear people to me such as close relatives behind just because my pocket is more empty after additional taxation.

"I am sorry mom, i cannot help you but I helped X number of refugees..."
The assumption the government makes is that high income earners just enrich themselves instead of helping others via personal assistance and charity is wrong.

I may have 4 more dependents (mother, father, sister and her boy) whom I cannot claim on taxes as dependents but whom I do help in real terms and they are my first priority to help than nameless refugees. In my own world, my close families are my first priority and their "refugees" to me. However, if the government sucks out money out of me because I am a good earner, my ability to help my beloved ones and close friends dwindles. Why would not the government make deductions for close family such as parents if it is so concerned to help the WORLD AT LARGE? Look I cannot turn into a hypocrat and go and save the world while my own parents who worked all their lives, need my help? What kind of person would it make me, please explain?

Many of us are some sort of refugees in life, depending on personal circumstances. I do not need to be put on a guilt feeling to imagine a worse situation someone else is vs. me now. I have seen plenty of hardship in life before reaching a certain level which is just a beginning. My responsibilities did not disappear and I am sorry for not putting some other people suffering in the world ahead of my own parents. I just wont do it. I do believe in helping others as I was helped myself. However, I do not believe in larger governments and larger government spending. What i believe is working smart and hard, keeping money in my own pocket and helping specific people I know first till they do not need me instead of contributing to government waste of my funds and shrinking my ability to make a difference to people I know, my immediate family and people who helped me and may need my help as well. Helping 10 nameless people or 10 specific people you CHOOSE to help - there is no difference in math, but there is a difference in IMPACT. Giving hope to a specific person through a personal charity in my opinion creates by a greater impact, use, and hope for the society at large. Making someone belief in something has a multiplier effect on society welfare, while subsidizing creates wrong expectations and consequences.

Obama had a privileged education and upbringing. In terms of his choices in life, he is more white than many whites in the US. He was also able to accumulate enough wealth by now not to care to give some of it away now in taxes. His increased taxes will disable many of professionals to accumulate wealth before that does not matter anymore.

Conclusion: Whether we should help others or not is not what is disputed. The conclusion is we should. However, we differ in approach: additional taxation for society at large or private charity to specific people. I choose the latter approach.

Ricky · Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1451 Location: OVERSEAS ;)

Maybe government should create tax incentives for helping specific people, specific refugees rather than giving more in taxes for government waste?

SeaBird · Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 696 Location: Alexandrea, EGYPT

moll wrote: Ricky wrote: to be honest, I am more concerned about what is left in my pocket vs. the world at large :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: ...and so are most of you. let us just not be hypocritical about it. What would you choose "foreign policy" over potentially 10% more in taxes? just be real before you say you would prefer "foreign policy"...none of us are 16 years old or/and members of Peace Corps, are we? :lol:

and you have to accept that 'foreign policy' makes a difference to the future of the world in the long term and if the world's up in arms, it really doesn't matter what you have in your pocket.

Agree

SeaBird · Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 696 Location: Alexandrea, EGYPT

Ricky wrote: it is easy to find a skeleton in many people's closets...especially when people run for a political position. if they cannot find, they would make one or stretch a situation out of proportion putting a person on the defensive. If a person keeps defending it is an automatic admission of a fact - that is all they want. The rest will be judged by constituency. many would not look deep into a situation and remember that the person admitted and then all the facts which were originally blown out of proportion... as a result that person is pretty much effectively framed by the opposite side. art of politics

I was in USA in 1995 when Bill was at the peak of receiving pressure from his enemies on Monica's case plus other less confirmed allegations by other women who claimed "advances" made by him.

As I recall that time in USA, your post above is a very conclusive statement that need no extra description. Well written.

As I read yr next posts hailing Hillary's competency for the Presidency, I don't think (Obama/H Clinton/McCain) may be able to deviate from the main course that the "establishment" could allow to happen.

Each may differ on the means to keep the train moving on the tracks but is unable to add/delete any of the main tracks they received from their predecessors.

I consider the electoral campains in USA for the Presidency as a Political Circus to make the Americans believe they really live in a Democratic country. A showbusiness that fulfills the everlasting desire for the Americans to practise the Art of Acting.

This doesn't mean that we don't have in Egypt a similar circus, actually our own circus is too much confined with limits that the Pharoh set for us to follow. Most of the Egyptians prefer it this way! maning, don't have the ambition to set their own rules/limits! Pharohnic genes, I think.
still yrs & ours have a common nature: a circus.

poppy · Joined: 19 May 2004 Posts: 300 Location: Istanbul, Turkey.

[quote="Ricky"] poppy wrote: Ricky wrote: to be honest, I am more concerned about what is left in my pocket vs. the world at large :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: ...and so are most of you. let us just not be hypocritical about it. What would you choose "foreign policy" over potentially 10% more in taxes? just be real before you say you would prefer "foreign policy"...none of us are 16 years old or/and members of Peace Corps, are we? :lol:

What If you're a migrant worker or refugee (this has many different connotations, from countries civil issues to personal harassment, or abuse). And, your on the run from you war torn, 3rd world country. Suppose you'd have a completely different mindset then....... :shock:

You'd automatically be socially, as well as financially excluded. Forced to live in compounds, no freedom of choice. Self respect dwindling to an all time low. :cry:

Perhaps made to live in a half-way temporary boarder line, between the legal Boundaries of one county and another?

If you got the time.
Or, assuming, you're opinion even counted?

Ricky wrote: You cannot expect me who makes good money to empty my wallet

Ricky wrote: Many of us are some sort of refugees in life, depending on personal circumstances.

Regardless of the political connotations, I don't want you to empty your wallet. Just trying to get you to empathize and see another perspective, thats all...... :wink:

And I agree, Many of us are some sort of refugee in life, depending on personal circumstances. AND this was the point I was trying to make, as well as extracting empathy in your viewpoint. So I'm glad you picked up on it! :)

Ricky · Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1451 Location: OVERSEAS ;)

[quote="poppy"] Ricky wrote: poppy wrote: Ricky wrote: to be honest, I am more concerned about what is left in my pocket vs. the world at large :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: ...and so are most of you. let us just not be hypocritical about it. What would you choose "foreign policy" over potentially 10% more in taxes? just be real before you say you would prefer "foreign policy"...none of us are 16 years old or/and members of Peace Corps, are we? :lol:

What If you're a migrant worker or refugee (this has many different connotations, from countries civil issues to personal harassment, or abuse). And, your on the run from you war torn, 3rd world country. Suppose you'd have a completely different mindset then....... :shock:

You'd automatically be socially, as well as financially excluded. Forced to live in compounds, no freedom of choice. Self respect dwindling to an all time low. :cry:

Perhaps made to live in a half-way temporary boarder line, between the legal Boundaries of one county and another?

If you got the time.
Or, assuming, you're opinion even counted?

Ricky wrote: You cannot expect me who makes good money to empty my wallet

Ricky wrote: Many of us are some sort of refugees in life, depending on personal circumstances.

Regardless of the political connotations, I don't want you to empty your wallet. Just trying to get you to empathize and see another perspective, thats all...... :wink:

And I agree, Many of us are some sort of refugee in life, depending on personal circumstances. AND this was the point I was trying to make, as well as extracting empathy in your viewpoint. So I'm glad you picked up on it! :)

Why do you think I do not? :roll: You cannot judge people without knowing them. I do not judge you

poppy · Joined: 19 May 2004 Posts: 300 Location: Istanbul, Turkey.

[quote="Ricky"] poppy wrote: Ricky wrote: poppy wrote: Ricky wrote: to be honest, I am more concerned about what is left in my pocket vs. the world at large :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: ...and so are most of you. let us just not be hypocritical about it. What would you choose "foreign policy" over potentially 10% more in taxes? just be real before you say you would prefer "foreign policy"...none of us are 16 years old or/and members of Peace Corps, are we? :lol:

What If you're a migrant worker or refugee (this has many different connotations, from countries civil issues to personal harassment, or abuse). And, your on the run from you war torn, 3rd world country. Suppose you'd have a completely different mindset then....... :shock:

You'd automatically be socially, as well as financially excluded. Forced to live in compounds, no freedom of choice. Self respect dwindling to an all time low. :cry:

Perhaps made to live in a half-way temporary boarder line, between the legal Boundaries of one county and another?

If you got the time.
Or, assuming, you're opinion even counted?

Ricky wrote: You cannot expect me who makes good money to empty my wallet

Ricky wrote: Many of us are some sort of refugees in life, depending on personal circumstances.

Regardless of the political connotations, I don't want you to empty your wallet. Just trying to get you to empathize and see another perspective, thats all...... :wink:

And I agree, Many of us are some sort of refugee in life, depending on personal circumstances. AND this was the point I was trying to make, as well as extracting empathy in your viewpoint. So I'm glad you picked up on it! :)

Why do you think I do not? :roll: You cannot judge people without knowing them. I do not judge you

I neither judge you OR think that you do not, don't worry this is not what I said.

Love an Peace. 8)

Ricky · Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1451 Location: OVERSEAS ;)

SeaBird wrote: Ricky wrote: it is easy to find a skeleton in many people's closets...especially when people run for a political position. if they cannot find, they would make one or stretch a situation out of proportion putting a person on the defensive. If a person keeps defending it is an automatic admission of a fact - that is all they want. The rest will be judged by constituency. many would not look deep into a situation and remember that the person admitted and then all the facts which were originally blown out of proportion... as a result that person is pretty much effectively framed by the opposite side. art of politics

I was in USA in 1995 when Bill was at the peak of receiving pressure from his enemies on Monica's case plus other less confirmed allegations by other women who claimed "advances" made by him.

As I recall that time in USA, your post above is a very conclusive statement that need no extra description. Well written.

As I read yr next posts hailing Hillary's competency for the Presidency, I don't think (Obama/H Clinton/McCain) may be able to deviate from the main course that the "establishment" could allow to happen.

Each may differ on the means to keep the train moving on the tracks but is unable to add/delete any of the main tracks they received from their predecessors.

I consider the electoral campains in USA for the Presidency as a Political Circus to make the Americans believe they really live in a Democratic country. A showbusiness that fulfills the everlasting desire for the Americans to practise the Art of Acting.

This doesn't mean that we don't have in Egypt a similar circus, actually our own circus is too much confined with limits that the Pharoh set for us to follow. Most of the Egyptians prefer it this way! maning, don't have the ambition to set their own rules/limits! Pharohnic genes, I think.
still yrs & ours have a common nature: a circus.

I agree with you.

It is all the same all over the world. Some have to sugar coat it less or more depending on a particular society and its "political" progress.

saffron · Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 2881 Location: Orange, Calf. USA

Seabird wrote: actually our own circus is too much confined with limits that the Pharoh set for us to follow. Most of the Egyptians prefer it this way! maning, don't have the ambition to set their own rules/limits! Pharohnic genes, I think.
What does this mean? I'm curious.

SeaBird · Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 696 Location: Alexandrea, EGYPT

saffron wrote: Seabird wrote: actually our own circus is too much confined with limits that the Pharoh set for us to follow. Most of the Egyptians prefer it this way! maning, don't have the ambition to set their own rules/limits! Pharohnic genes, I think.
What does this mean? I'm curious.

Hi Saffron

This simply means the long-lived heritage among the Egyptians to spend their lives covertly wishing the Pharoh to be merciful with them, to "offer" them any sort of "rights" He could accept, to wait until He dies then the succesor "may" be better than the precessor, and I can't see if this political passivity may have any end.
Yes, riots may erupt here and there / now and then when things become unbearable, but the Pharoh is usually well-equipped for containing such violent reactions. The Masses are used to silently suffer, a few dare to publicly voice their discontent regarding the unjustice that they live in.

The political parties in Egypt are counted in tens, could be 20 or even thirty, but with very limited membership. The Pharoh/Government's party has the highest membership based on that long-lived heritage: With the Pharoh things can get done, with Opposition only "losses" will be suffered from. The Egyptians deal with that heritage with a very pragmatic behavior ignoring its consequent reaction by losing the Power of behaving according to documented "Rights" not "Offers" / "Favors" from the Pharoh.

When/How we can see such "genetic" submission evaporate to provide space for newly adopted genes reflecting Rights not Offers? Who can do this surgical operation? Please; don't say G W Bush, we are much better with a Pharoh than getting into American-made Mass destruction/killing as he did in Iraq.

SeaBird · Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 696 Location: Alexandrea, EGYPT

Hi EveryOne

In my inBox, I got - this morning - a newsletter relevant to this thread which Saffron initiated about Obama. As I read one item of this newsletter I said to myself: as if this guy who wrote this item is seconding my opinion/reading my mind:

------------

"
In The Great Tradition

Obama Is A Hawk

By John Pilger

In 1941, the editor Edward Dowling wrote:

"The two greatest obstacles to democracy in the United States are,

first, the widespread delusion among the poor that we have a democracy,

and second, the chronic terror among the rich, lest we get it."

What has changed?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20095.htm

"

----------

Isn't this similar to what I wrote here about the Presidential campain, a showbusiness/circus? but the Train has main tracks it can't deviate from.

saffron · Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 2881 Location: Orange, Calf. USA

Seabird wrote: ...long-lived heritage among the Egyptians to spend their lives covertly wishing the Pharoh to be merciful with them, to "offer" them any sort of "rights" He could accept, to wait until He dies then the succesor "may" be better than the precessor, and I can't see if this political passivity may have any end.
Yes, riots may erupt here and there / now and then when things become unbearable, but the Pharoh is usually well-equipped for containing such violent reactions.
This is very interesting to me. I recall reading something about this years ago. That the ppl of Egypt are used to smiling and going about their lives, accepting the injustice instead of rebelling against the Pharaoh. (That is paraphrased).

But I wonder, how long would it take for them to evolve into a group or culture without "political passivity"? And how long was there the Pharaoh's rule? Was that going on for thousands of years? It would seem to me that it's human nature to want justice and independence instead of that. I can't even imagine being that way or living with that way of thinking.

Even the blacks who were brought here to US for slavery rebelled and were freed.
seabird wrote: The Masses are used to silently suffer, a few dare to publicly voice their discontent regarding the unjustice that they live in. Are you saying that they are this way even today in present time? Is there still a Pharaoh? :?:

saffron · Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 2881 Location: Orange, Calf. USA

Ricky wrote:

I agree with you.

It is all the same all over the world. Some have to sugar coat it less or more depending on a particular society and its "political" progress.
I disagree. :roll: This is a broad and sweeping generality.

moll · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 7705

I THINK I understand what you mean about the 'Pharoah mentality', SeaBird........ but if I'm wrong you can tell me :?

I'm just basing my opinions on the people we've got to know in Luxor over the years, mostly pretty traditional Egyptians with not much money and to be honest, it seems to me not much ambition :cry: They WANT to improve their lives, of course they do....but at the same time, they just seem to be accepting of them, like if they were born poor and under the 'jurisdiction' of some higher power, whether it's a Pharoah or a political party, then that's their lot in life and there's no changing it :cry:

They grumble a lot, they complain about corruption and the government and everything else.......but as long as they've got food on the table, they seem to be quite happy just sitting around in the coffee shops watching TV or playing dominoes or something....and although in a way that's one of the things I admire about Egyptians, their patience and good humour and lack of the 'rat race' mentality we have here, it still makes me feel like there should be some way to organise themselves a bit better to actually DO something, not just put up with it.